HoCoSo CONVERSATION
HoCoSo CONVERSATION
The Improvement Series - S1/Ep1: "Midlife Transitions", with Jay (Jonathan) Humphries
Welcome to The HoCoSo Improvement Series. A series of conversations with guests from a variety of backgrounds in sport, the military, business, and wellbeing to discuss their area of expertise and experiences in the sphere of personal development. This series is hosted by Jon Hazan, Executive Coach, at Atlas Coaching
"I have always been fascinated by human behaviour, and our ability to adapt to different environments, learn from our past and apply these learnings in new directions. Where better to learn than from those who have done it themselves. "
These conversations are often humorous, always enlightening and hopefully entertaining.
On our first episode of this series, our guest is no other than Jay (Jonathan) Humphries, your usual host to The HoCoSo CONVERSATION. Together with Jon, they will delve into "midlife transitions" and the process by which we recognize a need for change and act upon it.
Tune in and discover yourself, distinguish between transition and change, and stay tuned for more episodes of The Improvement Series coming soon ...
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Jonathan Humphries [00:00:00] Welcome to the Improvement Series Season One. This is a limited series. The next series of podcasts are hosted by my dear friend Jon Hazan, an executive coach at Atlas Coaching. Each episode explores a topic of personal development with an expert who shares their experience, learnings and thoughts and perspectives. Thank you for choosing to listen to the HoCoSo Conversation. We hope you enjoy this special series and follow us for some more.
Jon Hazan [00:00:36] Hello and welcome. My name is Jon. Today, I'm joined by Jonathan Humphries, a good friend of mine since university days. His illustrious and varied career spans over 25 years. He's been a management consultant at Deloitte, worked in international hotel development for Marriott International and is currently a lecturer at the Glion Institute of Higher Education, one of the world's top hospitality schools. He also co-founded HoCoSo, a consultancy company advising a variety of clients around the world on solutions and innovations within the hospitality sector. He has an executive MBA from the Kellogg School of Management Northwestern University in Chicago and is an experienced conference speaker and podcaster with his own podcast series HoCoSo Conversation. He also co-hosted the Hospitality Resilience Series with yours truly. Today, I wanted to discuss midlife transitions. A topic, no doubt close to many people's hearts. It's the process by which we recognize the need for change and act upon it. Within this conversation, we discussed a number of issues, talked about being in the present, the challenge and stages of transition, the discovery of self, the difference between transition and change, and the importance of being able to focus on controlling the controllables. So many things covered in such a short time. Thank you for joining me all the way from Lugano in what looks like a very sunny Switzerland. How you do?
Jonathan Humphries [00:02:15] I'm pretty good. Jon, I'm just testing the different water temperatures of all the lakes. Well, I'm on my second lake. What I realized is actually there's not much difference between the bloody cold at this time of year.
Jon Hazan [00:02:27] It's all freezing and we're lucky that you're still with us.
Jonathan Humphries [00:02:31] Yeah, so I'm just doing this kind of a little bit of immersion in the morning to kind of awaken the spirit, so to speak.
Jon Hazan [00:02:37] You've been doing this for a little while now, is it working?
Jonathan Humphries [00:02:39] Yeah, it is working, actually. Yeah, It's actually, you know, there's a lot of talk about being in the present. And put it this way, you can't escape being in the present when you're getting into freezing fricking water and trying to stay in for as long as you can. So it really aligns body, mind, everything else, spirit all in one place. So it's good training, it sets you up for the day.
Jon Hazan [00:03:06] I admire your discipline Jonno and your focus. I think I would need discipline, focus and throw myself in freezing cold water. So, yeah, well done you!
Jonathan Humphries [00:03:16] Yeah. It's actually. It's just come out of establishing new habits, kind of basically breaking old routines, starting new habits. It just creates a new energy and, you know, so it's one of those things that I just really wanted, I've always wanted to try. And it's just been a great example of how I was able to find energy from that to put into, you know, daily life basically without actually changing everything else. So that's been a nice test actually psychologically and physically.
Jon Hazan [00:03:49] I think it's a great example, Jonno, of, you know, we're constantly being told about find something that gives us energy and focus on the things that do us good, that give us energy. And it's a lovely example of something that you obviously, you've taken away, you've given some thought to and you've managed to make it fit into your lifestyle without causing too much damage to anything else that's going on. And you're drawing energy from it. And you know, long may that last, it's great. It's a really good example to the community of just, I wouldn't say an easy way to do it but something that you can adapt and adopt without you know seismic shift in your lifestyle. So yeah I admire it and it's kind of what we're here to chat about today. I've kind of, I've called this, today's session midlife transitions and I caution to say it's transitions, not crises. I'm in no way inferring that you, my friend, are in crisis. We are talking about transitions. And what I really wanted to talk about, because I admire you so much for doing this, is you've gone through this this journey of realization and self awareness, which we've talked a lot about in this series of podcasts and moved into action and you've done something about it. You recognize there's a need for change and need for transition and you've got on to it. And maybe, you know, a bit we can talk about that program, the Modern Elder Academy. But I wondered it because I think this will resonate with a lot of people out there. I think this is not a peculiar topic. This is something we all, those of us of a certain age embrace some more than others. And I admire you for embracing it in the way you have. So midlife transitions, what was your self-awareness? What was that moment? What was that start of the journey?
Jonathan Humphries [00:05:35] You know, Jon, I think just to put this into context, I would just say that I've been through many transitions in my life and we all have. If we look at, for example, transitioning from, let's say, school to whatever else, whether it's a job or into, you know, further education, you know, you yourself transitioned into military after higher education. So we have done transitions. The difference, I think, is when we get into a certain age is that those transitions seem to be more difficult and they're more difficult because we're wrapped in our own situation, which has certain responsibilities. The consequences of making a decision to move into a new area seem to be bigger. And also what we realize is normally what triggers a transition is that something happens either externally or internally. Right. So if you take, for example, the transition from university, it's an external trigger. You've graduated. Right? Exactly. You don't have a choice. If you passed, you can't just hang around. Some people do. But the idea is you transition into something else. So transitions, let's call them a more midlife. They can happen externally. Externally would be, you know, you lose the job, you hate what you're doing, it's not it's not really what you want to be doing anymore, your relationship doesn't work anymore, the company that you founded doesn't have any more funds. They're all external events that force you, are pressed upon you. And the other transition is an internal transition which is listening to what we, you know, in my case, what I was trying to hone in, what I really wanted to do and what I want to spend my time doing, I realized that my time was increasingly valuable. Also, I think around this particular point in one's life, we you know, we also the generation that is ahead of us, our parents, we start to see that actually life has its limits. And, you know, for myself, I realized I wanted to spend my time more fruitfully and put energy into the things that I purposely felt more rewarded by. So that was more of an internal driver, but I didn't know exactly what that was. I just knew that I needed to do more of that.
Jon Hazan [00:08:23] And I'm guessing, Jonno, this didn't happen overnight. This is a steady process of realization. Is that the case? Was it a building since that transitional change needed to happen?
Jonathan Humphries [00:08:33] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think I go back to the clearest last transition I did was when I left a big company, a big organization, hotel company, and I realized that, you know, I basically done what I'd set out to do. I'd set myself certain goals, certain personal objectives, and I had fulfilled those. And I also had this ambition of setting up my own company and also doing teaching. So it was an opportunity to go into both of those areas and moving forwards. I guess the external kick for me was the obviously the current crisis which we've been through in the last two years, and that's in itself triggered externally all of the chaos that was going around and the impact on the hospitality industry, but internally a desire to do something, to be of benefit, to share something. And what I realized is I was like, well, what do I have? What can I offer? And I realized there's a couple of things. I have some knowledge, but also I have some amazing, thankfully built up over many years, contacts and friends like yourself. And I felt that, you know, we had a luxury of being maybe in a place where we were informed or skilled in a way that maybe others weren't. And so therefore, it was an opportunity for us. And I felt like creating a community where we could come together and then share that knowledge more widely. And it just gave me so much pleasure and energy knowing that, you know, somebody somewhere was hopefully tapping into what we were doing and finding it of value. And so that gave me a new purpose, actually a new calling. And I realized that actually, you know, going forward, what I love is sharing, sharing, you know, conversations sharing, emotions sharing, insights, and obviously not directly from myself, but also through others. Hence the podcast channel, hence the Hospitality Resilience Series that we've done. And so therefore, it kind of ties in with this purpose. And I find this purpose is very powerful.
Jon Hazan [00:10:48] We hear so much about purpose, and that's great to have stumbled on that. I think purpose for me and you know, and I listen to a lot of people who are going through similar things and often it is that they've either lost their purpose, they realize that their purpose has changed. And, you know, this is kind of one of the key tenants for me about transitional change is that it is perfectly normal as you so rightly said, we go through transition all our lives. We transition from school to university or whatever it might be, further education, you know, this is stuff that we do. This is not a big new concept, this is stuff that happens to everyone in whatever field, but it's what you do about it. I think that is fascinating and I think it's how you get to that point where you say enough is enough, it's time to change and then you do something about it. That's what I find fascinating. And as you rightly say, purpose. If you've lost your purpose, if your purpose has become obscured or even as you said, you've fulfilled what you had to do within that role you were doing, and now it's time for something to change. Isn't that a wonderful spur to get on and change and transition to something new? So I think it's amazing to to recognize that. But then, Jonno, what I love, like I said earlier, is that you did something about it. You transitioned from awareness to acceptance. You were aware of change, you accepted, you needed to change, and then you made the change. Tell me a bit more about the leap into the program, the Modern Elder Academy, and how did you get there? What forced you into that action?
Jonathan Humphries [00:12:19] Actually, I've been following the modern Elder Academy for a few years. It's been set up by somebody called Chip Conley in the hospitality industry. He's very well-known. For those of you not in the industry, he was the most well-known for being the strategic advisor to two young entrepreneurs that founded Airbnb, and he helped them take that to, you know, what Airbnb is today. And he set up this place in Baja, New Mexico, which is a retreat. And I'd always thought it would be pretty nice to go there. But obviously with this whole situation going on around the world, he set up an online program. So it was an opportunity to engage in that and I felt that it was the right time because, you know, I'd read a few books which really resonated. I read more than a few books, but there are very well written books. I read a few books that resonated, but, you know, they told a similar story. And I guess it was also going through my podcast and realizing what I was doing. And a book that resonated with me very much was The Hero's Journey by Joseph Campbell, which is essentially, it's really about finding meaning. It's about discovering oneself, you know, facing the challenges, the personal challenges, and then sharing and coming back into the community and sharing with the new approach, the new way. And Viktor Frankl was an author who had a big impact on the search for meaning, right, which, you know, I think for a lot of business here, they'll probably know that book. But, you know, he says, you know, man can suffer any how if he knows his why, right? Or words to that effect. Right? And he also founded something called Loja therapy. And his view was, look, we can do all the psychotherapy that we want. You know, we can find out why we can't do something and we can blame everybody historically and blame ourselves. But ultimately, if we can figure out what we want to do, that's a much poor powerful driver. So these things were coming together.
Jon Hazan [00:14:26] I realized and we were talking about this in another podcast and realized that we have the choice, that we can choose our actions as well. You know, you talked about internal and external, and yes, external factors may influence that, but we choose to react. You know, there are people that choose to stay in an unhappy environment with their job, a relationship, whatever it might be. You also can choose to leave. So, you know.
Jonathan Humphries [00:14:48] You can choose to leave. And I think what's more important is you can also choose how you approach the situation right? And I know that sounds a bit deep. But, you know, we can change our experience by how we decide we are going to react and respond in any given situation, right? So I think, you know, this is where we have to be careful about the difference between change and transition. And there's a book by William Bridges, which was published a very long time ago, which is called Transitions. And I read that, you know, before going to the Modern Elder Academy. And, you know, the Modern Elder Academy, to be fair, is based a lot on William Bridges' right philosophy. And he talks about the three stages, which is basically the closure / the ending, the middle and the new beginnings. And in order for new beginning.
Jon Hazan [00:15:52] I really like that, that really resonates. I think, you know, when you're taking on something as big and as confusing as transition, to give it a framework like that, the end, the messy middle and new beginnings, I love that. That really landed.
Jonathan Humphries [00:16:06] Yeah, exactly. And this is where the difference is between a transition and a change. A transition. We need to go through those three stages. We have to we have to create closure. We have to transition, which is also a messy middle, which is pretty much chaotic because we don't know where we stand. We don't know what we stand for. We don't know. Everything is just moving parts. Then there starts to be light at the end of the tunnel again, and then things start to calm down and become clearer. But through that transition is the discovery of self and a discovery that we maybe need want can do certain things. We need to develop in certain areas. We need to build certain relationships, we need to whatever it might be, but let's call it personal development, Jon. This is nothing new. That transition phase is actually our development phase, and I think it's really.
Jon Hazan [00:17:07] We're really taking yet again. You know, it's almost alarming how often this comes up. Are we talking about self-awareness as a first step?
Jonathan Humphries [00:17:14] We are. It is. It is. It's self-awareness that there's an opportunity in this transition phase once you decide to step into it, either forced or unforced.
Jon Hazan [00:17:26] Right.
Jonathan Humphries [00:17:26] That if you say, I'm going to accept this transition phase and I'm going to use it as an opportunity to develop in whatever area; skills, knowledge, resources, mind, you know, body, whatever. But I'm going to use it. And I don't know how long that transition phase is going to be. I mean, I'm still in the middle of this right? And just, you know, certain aspects of my life have probably gone through a transition phase and a kind of a new beginnings and, you know, personally that's fortunate. But other areas of my life, more professional. They're in more of a transitionary phase and I'm looking for new beginnings. So actually we could map out. What we can do is map out different parts of our life, whether it's personal relationships, whether it's maybe friendships, maybe it's communities, maybe it's professional, and we can see where they are, whether they are kind of at the end, whether they are or coming to an end, whether they are in the transition or whether they're in the new beginning phase.
Jon Hazan [00:18:23] That's a good point. And again, I stress this a lot with the clients of mine is not to look at life as work life. I reject that. Actually, there's a great wheel of Life, exercise used by a lot of coaches that sees life as consisting of eight sections. And as you were just saying, you really need to look at each section and see. And this is ostensibly a balance exercise, but it can be used for many purposes and see where you sit on that. You know, how satisfied, how fulfilled, how balanced, how aligned you are in each of those areas will allow you that holistic position and will allow you I'm guessing you may have done this consciously or subconsciously to then focus on where transition is needed. Does that land with you as well?
Jonathan Humphries [00:19:11] Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you start mapping it out, you know, on that spectrum and you can decide what areas of your life you want to put on that spectrum, it becomes very clear. And it becomes very clear what parts of your life you want to focus on or need to focus on. You know, that's why I differentiate between a transition and a change, because a transition requires us to kind of think about things like this, you know, closing, transitioning and new beginnings. A change doesn't require a transition. Okay. And this is what a lot of people do. They go, okay, I'm not happy in my current job, job sucks. I'm going to find myself a new job.
Jon Hazan [00:19:54] Yeah.
Jonathan Humphries [00:19:55] They jump into a new job. They finish on a Friday and they start on a monday. But what have they done? They've taken all of their, let's say, baggage. Let's just call it for what it is right? Let's just call it what it is. All their baggage, all their perspectives, all of their, you know, skills. And they've literally changed location or situation right? That's it. And you can do that with a relationship right? You can do that in, you know, a sport, a hobby. You can say, okay, that sucks, I'm going to start a new hobby, right?
Jon Hazan [00:20:30] It's a great point. Change is not, I'm trying to think of the right word. You're really just changing one environment almost for another. But there's no transition. There's no difference.
Jonathan Humphries [00:20:40] A very obvious example is people change location. They move from one town to another or they, you know, maybe their relationship isn't working out. And what do they do? They move house. They go, okay, let's try a new location.
Jon Hazan [00:20:52] Let's make a change.
Jonathan Humphries [00:20:53] Let's make a change. Let's try again. A start again, right? You know, so I think this is why transitions for me is really helpful just in terms of thinking. And, you know, maybe it's because I you know, I did study a little bit at university, as you know, Jon, occasionally. But I have a, my background is kind of I have a logical mind. So I like these kind of frameworks and things that I can kind of visualize that kind of make sense. And I can kind of then, okay, start to make sense of things that are going on around. So, you know that.
Jon Hazan [00:21:25] It's a good point, Jonno. Are we talking about, if we're talking about skills for transition which I kind of tentatively touch on, I'm not sure such thing even really exists, but if we were going to say that, okay, what does it help? What helped you to get into that transition? And I believe we're talking about a mindset here. Are we talking about a change of mindset? Then it's reflections, it's time, it's being mindful to it. It's really paying attention to it, really noting the need for change, really thinking about what that means and then transitioning, is that fair or?
Jonathan Humphries [00:22:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I guess this started for me about two years ago. And Jon, as you know, before that, I went through some big personal transition and separation, you know, from my wife, etc.. And so that was four years ago. But about two years ago, I looked at my diary and it was the end of summer. And I remember this, it was the end of summer. And I looked at my diary. So this was 2012, okay? Just kind of put some context when we could still travel and things were busy. And I don't want to make this sound like a luxury issue. It was just my work life was, my professional life was just chaotic, right? There was just so much going on. And I looked at, I had a full teaching schedule. There were like three streams of students. And then I had conferences in Dubai and London, speaking engagements and this, that and the other. And I looked at my schedule at the end of the summer and I was like, How the hell am I going to get through to Christmas if I'm already exhausted, right? And I was like, this just isn't sustainable. It's not sustainable. And I was reading a book by Tim Ferriss at that time, Tribe of Mentors.
Jon Hazan [00:23:16] Yeah. Yeah. Great book.
Jonathan Humphries [00:23:17] It's a great book. And, you know, I like what he's done with his podcast and different things. And I've been listening to it for a while and just something jumped out at me was this, you know, all these different leaders in different organizations were doing some kind of form of meditation. And transcendental meditation was mentioned. And I decided to do a course and I set aside I literally signed up immediately. I'm like, I've got to do this. I need to do it now because I don't even think I'm going to make it to Christmas like from an energy perspective. And I need to be on top of my game, running my own company. I'm head of, you know, all these different things, right? So I literally blocked first Friday in September and I'm like, okay, I'm taking Friday afternoon off. I'm going to go and do this course. And it really shifted. My energy shifted, my focus, it started to make me more aware physically what I was going through. I felt the stress of what was going on. I realized I needed more downtime, more private time, more calm time. I needed just to recharge.
Jon Hazan [00:24:21] Moment of realization?
Jonathan Humphries [00:24:22] Yeah. You know, And thank goodness I do it, you know, now. You know, if I carried on like that, who knows, right? You can't just keep running on the treadmill, you know, until the treadmill runs out of electricity because it's not going to run out of electricity. Right? We give up before the treadmill, most likely. But what it did is it started a personal journey for me of discovery because it gave me more time to literally go, okay, you know, how do I want to spend my energy? How do I want to spend my time? What do I want to do? So the first thing you know, in the crisis happened, I had a tool. I had a very practical tool. So it was like, okay, I'm just going to go and sit. I'm going to just reflect. I'm going to say, okay, how do I feel about this? What can I do? Now you would call it just thinking time, you know? You know, writers would sit at an empty piece of paper for hours, just kind of just trying to figure out. So I used it as a tool and, you know, hence came up with the podcasts and all the recovery series and resilience stuff that we did, just our conversation. It's just kind of, it was just very helpful.
Jon Hazan [00:25:31] If I kind of jump in with it. What triggers in my mind when you say this is the importance of realizing that you must find what works for you and that in this particular instance for you, Jonathan Humphries, that mindfulness course was your trigger, and out of that came realization and you acted upon it. So again, we're back to that kind of self awareness journey. However, the trigger point, the moment of realization for you came through mindfulness. And you know, for the community, it's important that we grasp the need to find what works for you. You know, you need to kind of, there's so much stuff out there grasp, explore, be curious, but work out what it is that works for you.
Jonathan Humphries [00:26:12] Yeah, I think that's fair. And, you know, I also realized that I had done a lot of it before, but I hadn't noticed.
Jon Hazan [00:26:20] Yeah.
Jonathan Humphries [00:26:21] You know, as you know, Jon. I did, you know, I've done marathons, I did triathlons. And it was it's not the event itself, but the training, you know, that relentless training of getting up early mornings for a run, late nights going for a run. That was my meditation time. And I think what happened over the years is that opportunity for reflection stopped. I just didn't build it into my schedule when I stopped training and not going outdoors.
Jon Hazan [00:26:50] You know when you've got pressures in your time from everyone and we read this everywhere, don't we? The pressures on your time from work, from family, from friends, you lose the time for self.
Jonathan Humphries [00:27:00] Yeah, exactly.
Jon Hazan [00:27:02] It falls down the priority level.
Jonathan Humphries [00:27:04] Yeah, exactly. So the tool can be anything, right? I think it's just to then be mindful about what that tool is and then try and maybe engage with it more. As I, you know, start at the beginning of our conversation today. It's about for me, it's about trying to find tools that create new energy. Yeah. So, you know, hands this cold water swimming and all that kind of stuff, you know, because I'm conscious that, you know, meditation and mindfulness is great. It's great for trying to, you know, just help being the present and try to figure things out. But actually, we all need to find energy from somewhere. And I'm just trying to discover where I can find new energy sources because I believe that energy can be dissipated in our everyday activities. So, you know, that's kind of my focus at the moment. So it's not like a fixed date. And I think transitions are not fixed. Transitions, it's a constant state and some of it's transitioning, some of it's not. And I think if we just look at it as, you know, we're on a journey, how we engage with that journey, how we want to do that journey is up to us and let's just try and make the most of that journey that we possibly can.
Jon Hazan [00:28:10] I had a lovely chat with one of our other guests earlier this week, and he identified as being this in a kind of state of flux, that it will ebb and flow. Ebb and flow. And, you know, we were talking about a different topic, but I think we can apply that here and say that, like you rightly say, change is constant or transition is harder, but change is constant and it's an ebb and flow process and our batteries are ebbing and flowing. We're topped up. I remember chatting to somebody recently and they were saying, you know, treat your energy like a battery. So you charge up and then you draw down on that and then you charge up again and you draw down. But if you if you don't charge up, you know, you ain't going anywhere.
Jonathan Humphries [00:28:51] Yeah, I agree with that. And I think the other thing is, where do we focus our energy, right? And the challenge today is there's so much external stuff going on, right? And we have almost no control over that. Zero. So we can dissipate a lot of energy focused on external. But what we can control is internal, right? That's why I go back. It's like how we view, how we view the world, how we interact with the world is our decision. So that's why I'm focusing on stuff I can control. I can try and control me as bloody hard right? And you know me, Jon, it's not surprising. It's bloody hard, let alone try and control anything elseb that's going out in the world might as well forget it. Right?
Jon Hazan [00:29:40] Well, there's a great phrase I came upon that said control the controllables, don't worry about. And it goes back to the glorious the Serenity prayer, which I would press the community to go and find, go find the Serenity prayer, because essentially it's saying control the controllables. Don't worry about stuff that we can't control. Control, focus on what you can control. And I'll give me the wisdom to tell the difference. You know, that's a lovely way of just saying there's so much stuff going out there, don't do it. Jonno, you've bought us almost full round, I'm mindful of the time, we could talk about this for days I love it, and your journey is particularly interesting and again, I salute you for taking it. But we've talked about so much here from, you know, being in the present, the challenge of transition, the stages of transition, transition versus change, moments of realization. We've covered so much. But if you were going to boil it down to say to our community, here's some actionable points for you. What might they be?
Jonathan Humphries [00:30:37] I think most importantly. A couple of things. Take a little bit of time out of the day for, you know, yourself and it doesn't have to be much, but just take that time and do something with it that is basically free of distraction. I think that's absolutely clear. Stuff will just start to become clear through that process. Start something new. Whatever it is, and it can be. I do 5 minutes in the morning, write this swim. It takes me an hour and a half to recover. But the fact is, just start something new. It's, you know, there's a lot of science behind this in terms of cognitive development and behavioral development. By just starting anything new just starts to rewire how we think and behave. So I would encourage that. And I would also, you know, we've done a lot of stuff on the Resilience Series, Jon, and you know, we know that those that have kind of shown the most resilience and I would say going through a transition is the same is like, do what we're doing now. Like just reach out, have a chance, have a buddy, talk through it, you know, share and motivate each other to keep going because it's bloody tough doing it by yourself. We're not designed to be lone wolves. We're actually.
Jon Hazan [00:32:02] Another resounding kind of recurring, sorry, I should say recurring theme is draw on your community. Draw in your community. Don't do it alone.
Jonathan Humphries [00:32:13] Absolutely. You know, let's all work together. We're all going through the same big shit externally. We might as well help each other internally. So that's it. Jon, I think, it'd be nice if we could put some of those references in the notes, you know, the books and also the Serenity Prayer that you mentioned. I think that was a nice a nice one to close on.
Jon Hazan [00:32:32] Always like the Serenity Prayer. Yeah, definitely. We'll put those references on the website and some of those books. Thank you for referencing those. Jonno, thank you for sound advice. I mean, it's wonderful to hear from personal experience what can be done. So thank you so much. I know you're a busy man. It was awesome chatting to you Jonno.
Jonathan Humphries [00:32:51] It's a pleasure, Jon, thank you. I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much for the opportunity to share with the audience. Thank you, Jon.
Jon Hazan [00:32:59] Take care, Jonathan.
Jonathan Humphries [00:33:02] Thank you for listening to the HoCoSo Conversation. If you've enjoyed this podcast from our limited series, take a look at our previous episodes and stay tuned for our next ones. We look forward to you joining us on this unique exploratory journey.