HoCoSo CONVERSATION
HoCoSo CONVERSATION
"Leading Dynamically: The four principles of leadership - PART 2" with Patrick Ghielmetti
Patrick Ghielmetti, president of Ghielmetti & Associates, is Jonathan Humphries' guest for this episode of the HoCoSo CONVERSATION.
Patrick is a transformational leadership coach, and conducts workshops and cultural change programs across 35 countries. In part 1 of this discussion, we looked at the first of the four principles of leadership, commitment, and introduced the other principles, being:
- Commitment
- Responsibility
- Authenticity
- and Contribution
In part 2, we look at responsibility, being responsible. The four levels of responsibility:
- I am not responsible
- Taking responsibility which is for duty and service
- I am responsible for the way I react to or relate to an event
- and I am responsible towards everything
Stay tuned for parts 3 and 4, COMING SOON!
Join us for this enlightening conversation!Follow our journey and our discussion with some of the most renowned and influential people of our time.
In the same category:
"How to transition from a Static to a Dynamic Leadership style" with Patrick Ghielmetti, Part of the Hospitality Resilience Series
"Agile Leadership: Transforming teams and individuals - Being agile and doing agile" - PART ONE - with Markus Feller
“Personal Transformation: Living with a positive mindset to create new results” – with Simone Gibertoni
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Jonathan Humphries [00:00:01] I am your host, Jonathan Humphries, welcome to the HoCoSo Conversation Part two. These are unfiltered conversations with people sharing their life journeys and learnings to help us become better versions of ourselves.
Jonathan Humphries [00:00:15] It is my absolute pleasure to be joined today by Patrick Ghielmetti, from Ghielmetti & Associates. Patrick is a behavior-based coach and is an experienced facilitator of dynamic transformational leadership programs across 35 countries. He is passionate about changing the world one leader at a time. His illustrious career spans 30+ years in hospitality, mainly with Four Seasons Hotels and Resorts, one of the most prestigious hospitality companies in the world, where he held many senior leadership positions. During today's discussion, we will be exploring the difference between dynamic and static leadership. The four principles of leadership: Commitment, Responsibility, Authenticity and Contribution. And we will talk about what it takes to be a truly transformational leader. Thank you so much for joining the HoCoSo conversation.
Jonathan Humphries [00:01:17] OK, so we have three other.. We're doing well..
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:01:24] But it takes time.
Jonathan Humphries [00:01:25] It does. OK, so let's, this is actually quite a lot we wanted to explore, so we now have, the second one is responsibility. And I know that there's an overlap between these four principles. I know they're all completely intertwined. Let's explore what we mean by responsibility and as you highlighted around: being committed; it's about being responsible. That's my interpretation of it.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:01:57] Totally. We go back to a stake in the ground, it's a way of being and you know, are you ready for another provocation?
Jonathan Humphries [00:02:04] Of course.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:02:06] So when I said with commitment that I'll handle it whatever it takes. The one phrase that I would put as a provocation in terms of responsibility is if it's to be, it's up to me, not to anyone else, but just up to me. And for me, that kind of four levels of responsibility and they go deeper towards a more evolved, transformational way. The first one is very easy. I am not responsible. OK? It has to do with responsibility, but I'm not responsible that, you know, the place is not my fault. And what have you? That is not responsible. The second one is, and you and I talked about that beforehand, is taking responsibility. Taking responsibility to me has a lot to do with duty and obligation. What's expected of me? I could expand further, but let's let's just stop there for a moment. So it's taking responsibility. The third level is I am responsible for the way I relate to an event.
Jonathan Humphries [00:03:14] Yes.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:03:15] OK? Now we're getting more involved. I'm responsible for the way I relate to an event, but there is still, it's still not transformational and there is still a certain element of control. Here's the last one that's really powerful, number four; I am responsible for everything. I am responsible for everything. People who lead that way from that come from, from that way of being, again, chances to generate exceptional results have just exponentially increased. I'm responsible for everything. You know, take an example. I have been married to Margaret for 29 years. I am responsible for my marriage works today. I'm responsible, not she. I am responsible 100 percent. How the night turns out today, in what place is she today, in what place am I today? What does it take for us to function as a couple to have the best marriage day possible today? From a transformational point of view, I am responsible for that. It's not a 50-50. I am responsible for that. Now, if you had the conversation with Margaret and me being out of the room, OK, B would say she is responsible for that and allowing me to be not responsible. But it is not that both need to be at "I'm responsible", no from my perspective, I am the one who is responsible how the event turns out. 100 percent. Huge provocation. And I get a lot of pushback on this, I get a lot of feedback on this, but then I also get a lot of folks, you know, in my leadership training that all of a sudden start to adopt that more and start to practice that more versus the expectation that the other partner is responsible for 50 percent. We take this out of the equation, says no it's up to me how the other partnership was up to date because of how I show up, all of a sudden something else gets generated, whether that's in marriage, whether that's in business, whether that's in personal relationships, whatever that is. I have to come to believe that there is incredible wisdom behind that. Again, it's a provocation and it's a perspective, it's not the truth, it has become mine.
Jonathan Humphries [00:06:01] OK.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:06:03] And I see you [laughs]. The audience doesn't have the benefit of seeing you visually, but…
Jonathan Humphries [00:06:08] Yeah, you know, I would like, I need to understand this more. OK, this is this is where I'm coming from. I am not responsible. That's clear. You can say I'm not responsible for that. That's a decision. And you, as long as you state that very early on, and clearly, I understand that taking responsibility, there are obviously within many different roles. There is duty and obligation. And if you're in that role, you have to take the responsibility of that role good and bad.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:06:46] Absolutely.
Jonathan Humphries [00:06:46] That's it. And that's helpful. And I think it overlaps a little bit, but that objectivity also helps. Right? I think that perspective taking helps to say that's my role, because duty and obligation sounds kind of heavy.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:07:01] Yes. You know, it sounds kind of heavy, but in many ways, frequently it's the case.
Jonathan Humphries [00:07:07] Yes.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:07:07] And there could be other things you could say, you know, it's out of guilt. It's my fault. There's the issue of fault, there's the issue of control. It's all somewhere there, whatever it is for you and you're correct duty and obligation can be somewhat heavy. But in many ways, I think it's at play.
Jonathan Humphries [00:07:24] Yeah, but I prefer the aspect of duty and obligation, which is more linked to, it's disconnecting the emotion and the ego. If we start talking about it's, you know, I'm doing this from the place of feeling guilty. I mean, it's healthy, right? So
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:07:41] I go to visit my my mother in law on a Sunday. Luckily, luckily, in my case, that was never the case, she's my best friend. But for a lot of people here it’s right, I need to go to see my in-laws because it's the responsible thing to do and taking responsibility. There's duty and obligation and expectation behind this action. Would you agree with that?
Jonathan Humphries [00:08:03] Yeah, I would. And you do it for normally the right reasons.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:08:07] Exactly, exactly. Absolutely.
Jonathan Humphries [00:08:10] Because maybe it's part of the bigger picture.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:08:12] Yeah.
Jonathan Humphries [00:08:12] Maybe it's part of your relationship with Margaret, you want that to be the best possible relationship that it can be, right?
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:08:21] Perfect.
Jonathan Humphries [00:08:21] So therefore it links back to that you're taking responsibility. So then I am responsible for the way I relate or I would add to respond to an event.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:08:31] Absolutely. Absolutely. Very well said.
Jonathan Humphries [00:08:34] I think that that is really, really helpful to taking that I totally agree, the outcome of an event, the outcome of a conversation, the outcome of a difficult situation, the outcome of especially ultimately it doesn't matter what role we're in; most of the time with, whether it's friendships, relationships, work colleagues, teams, organizations, we're dealing with people from their own perspectives, their own situations, how they woke up in the morning, what they had for breakfast, what's on their minds, you know, what's going on in their personal lives, what happened in a previous meeting? It's all, you know, it's all based on the current interaction. So being able to respond in the right way thoughtfully, I think, can have a huge impact on the outcome. And I'm spending a lot of time personally trying to be, to respond in the right way, the right way for me.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:09:41] Exactly. May I, I will probably say to respond in a thoughtful and mindful way, whether it's right or wrong, we don't know. But to the best where you come across as the best version of self in a thoughtful and mindful way.
Jonathan Humphries [00:09:56] Yeah. And I wouldn't say it's it's not easy.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:10:02] I agree. I wouldn't say it's easy.
Jonathan Humphries [00:10:05] Yeah. So it is possible. It's not easy. You know, and when I don't, I reflect on it, if I think it's appropriate and I will follow up and explain and change my position and respond in the thoughtful and appropriate way that I thought that I should have.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:10:29] That will be going back to dynamic leadership because you're starting from a place of acceptance versus being resistant.
Jonathan Humphries [00:10:35] Yeah, yeah. So I'm trying to practice something called fast reflection, right? So maybe at that particular moment in time, I was off balance. I didn't catch the momentum or I didn't catch the essence of what was going on and then I try and respond in the appropriate way, even if it's after the event. Hopefully, I'm hoping that those, the frequency of those reduces over time. So now, if I'm responsible for everything, can we just maybe I just don't understand this completely, because in essence, you know, I can't be responsible for everything in the clearest version of that statement, that I am not responsible for the whether I'm the responsible for the pandemic, I'm not responsible for, you know, if a company decides that they want to downsize, I'm not responsible if my loved one gets sick, I'm not responsible for kids have an accident on the way home or I'm not responsible for how amazing the food is at the restaurant that I go out to for lunch. So can you provide some context to this? Because I'm kind of struggling with the everything part. This is about perspective I presume and ownership, and mindset, OK.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:11:59] So I am not sure that I understand it fully. Frankly speaking, I am not sure that it's an intellectual understanding. To me, it's a mindset.
Jonathan Humphries [00:12:12] OK, let's go there.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:12:14] It's a mindset, so I hear you when you say you're not responsible for the weather, but let's say, let's say I'm not responsible if my two boys have an accident, a bicycle accident. What if you were responsible from a mindset viewpoint and said, is there anything that I can learn from this so that, what is it maybe, that I have not put into place in order to possibly have avoided it? You know, is it a different take? Have my boys got enough sleep? Whatever you want to go. And it is not take on guilt. It’s not what I'm saying at all? It is, I don't think it's an intellectual concept, it is a, that I call; a stake in the ground. It's a way of being. It's a mindset, "I'm responsible for it" because I think when you operate from that place, you have a different approach in terms of response. It goes back again to how I respond to the event.
Jonathan Humphries [00:13:19] Sure.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:13:19] If you don't operate from a place "I am responsible", so if "I am responsible for everything" is not on your mind. I think you may feel very quickly, take the accident of the bicycle accident. It doesn't faze you all the sympathy for your boys, and hopefully they're OK. But in terms of responsibility, you don't take that on. If you operate from a place of "I'm responsible", it is somehow in your sphere of ownership to use your terminology. And if there's anything that I could have done, that anything that I would do differently in the future to avoid it and to me, that somehow plays into that realm, you know what I mean? To me, it is, it is there.
Jonathan Humphries [00:14:08] All right, I'm, I think my interpretation of this is that it's a holistic approach.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:14:18] Beautiful.
Jonathan Humphries [00:14:18] Of I'm being responsible because I think so many times as human beings, we're quite happy to be responsible for the things that go well, right? You know, and we know, we'll tie it back in with business and company and organizations and teams when let's say, business is going well, CEO, right? And they've had a great year, right? Then your chief is responsible.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:14:45] I'm responsible. Of course of course.
Jonathan Humphries [00:14:49] You know, but let's say it was not a great year. Sales didn't come in. Then suddenly there is a disconnection of responsibility. Well, I'm not responsible for these results because of these and these and these and these reasons, right? This normally,
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:15:06] That's not response and my response would be you absolutely are responsible.
Jonathan Humphries [00:15:10] Exactly, exactly. So I think all of these are interrelated, right? It's accepting. It's accepting your role, your duty and obligations. It's about how you respond and relate and react to the situation.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:15:29] And beyond. And beyond and you use the word holistic. I totally relate to that. I use the word transformational. That's the beyond.
Jonathan Humphries [00:15:36] Yes.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:15:37] It is absolutely all those three; I am not responsible, I take responsibility, I'm responsible the way I relate and or response to the event. But that's not holistic. That's not transformational. That last one is and that to me, provides this incredible opportunity for growth. If more of humankind were to operate from a more holistic, transformational viewpoint. We would, as a humankind, generate different results be it in terms of climate change, be it in terms how we respond to the pandemic and what have you, we would generate something different than we are generating now. That's the provocation. It's not an intellectual conversation. I think it's a, it's to use your terminology more holistic and or transformational. Does it make any sense? That's how I see it. It's usually provocative.
Jonathan Humphries [00:16:31] Yeah, it's taking, it's taking a little bit of time for me to shift my perspective on this. But I get it, and I think it's I think it's really important and it makes absolute sense. And you know, it is absolutely fair to say if I'm in a leadership position which I am, I'm responsible for whatever happens right? Within that organization. But you're right, it's then that, what I like about what you're saying is once you've made that shift, you can then say, well, I'm responsible because the outcome wasn't what I expected, right? Negative results, there's been job losses, people have left the company, morale is low, right?
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:17:22] Still responsible.
Jonathan Humphries [00:17:22] Still responsible. So what can I do about this? How can I change personally? How can I change my approach, my thinking, my behavior? How can I change my acceptance, right? So going back to acceptance, right? So this is totally linked.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:17:40] Totally linked to dynamic leadership. That's why I said at the beginning, those four, to me, support your choice in leading dynamically because then again you have a choice, right? You could say, poor me, we had a bad year, the pandemic, that's why my company doesn't yield the results; that is not responsible. If my company has yielded the results, what is it that I may not have cost in order to generate the outcomes that I cost without making yourself wrong? It's not a matter of the Catholic, be whipping yourself or blaming somebody else, blaming yourself, guilt, that's not what I'm referring to. Back to acceptance, OK great, I have not generated great results. Great. What's the learning for me here? So that possibly in the future I will generate different results, and that can only happen if you operate from a place of acceptance in my humble seeing. And a lot of us go to resistance again, "not my fault". And the minute you go there, which actually there is some justification and rationale and it's not wrong, but you will not generate anything different with result. That's where we get stuck in, that's where we stagnate at best.
Jonathan Humphries [00:18:59] How did you, Patrick, how did you reach this point where you were comfortable with saying "I am responsible for everything", what was the point where this became clear to you? Because for me, having this conversation with you, it's becoming clearer to me that this is the way forward.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:19:20] Yeah.
Jonathan Humphries [00:19:20] You know, it feels the right way to be a leader, feels the right way to be in a relationship, friendship. You know, and we feel it right. We feel if we start, you know, I've been in situations where even recently I had a meeting with the team a few weeks ago and I just felt completely all in, fully engaged and I could see everything happening, the change in dynamics. Actually, you're right in terms of we are responsible in a way for the outcome, right? How much energy you would put in, how much focus, how much attention, how much drive, how much motivation, all of these other things, how we communicate, all of these different things... So what, when was it that this became clear for you that this is the way that you wanted to live? Because, I mean, it's very important.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:20:20] So an attempt at a response, you know, I've been in the domain quote-unquote of transformational leadership for the past 15 years. There was somebody like me who had a conversation like I'm having with you now, and I think my initial reaction was exactly like yours; hang on a second, that doesn't make sense. And intellectually, I don't understand it so completely normal, right? So that knowledge is not coming from me that was given to me and has been around for a while by all the transformational traits. At some point through, I would say, openness, and instead of rejecting this module as wrong, I think I started to become open to this module as; Is there something for me to look at? Not that it's right, but is there something for me to look at? So I think what happened in those, I can't give the exact moment, but what happened at some point is shifting out of resistance; this is wrong to acceptance. Hang on, there may be something to see. And once I started from that place, I think I started to explore, understand it differently, and practicing new behaviors and actions around it and seeing that I'm causing new results. So I think it was a very personal experience of noticing, hold on, by practicing this holistic/transformational approach, there is something to be gained. No, I am not an expert at this. I very frequently, you know, you could catch me in a moment where I say I'm not responsible because I'm a human being, not a robot. But, but now I notice it. And then when I make such a statement, I might go back say hang on, hang on, in fact, I am totally responsible for it and I could take that statement back or make a different choice after.
Jonathan Humphries [00:22:20] What kind of, let's say, mental, I don't want to call it trick but what what would you recommend? Let's phrase it the other way around, if I want to practice this, I would like, all right, let's phrase I would, I'm not going to commit yet. OK? I would like to practice; No, hold on. I'm going to commit to practicing this. OK. I'd like to practice this, and I will commit to practicing this. But how do I do it? What's the best way that I can start practicing this?
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:22:51] So you have already started because in my getting to know you over the past six months, I do realize more and more how incredibly open you are to new ways of seeing, being and looking. That includes today's conversation. But way prior, when you have other conversations, there is this curiosity. There is this openness to new things. There is this very apparent way of you, sorry, I will rephrase that, a very apparent way for me perceiving you operating in a place of acceptance. That's the way to do it. Meaning staying in that conversation and then practicing it and you are in that to me Jonathan, that's just who you are or who you've become. You're an out of the box thinker and you are in that domain, practicing in that domain of holistic. You spend time with a monk, you know, or a zen master. And I'm not saying that you need to be a guru on a mountain, you know, by all by yourself. It is exactly, I think the day that they practice that makes it powerful because it will only work if we notice our failings and successes around this. And if we don't make the failings wrong, but learn from them and turn them possibly to success. So to me, it's continued practice and incorporating in your day to day life with others. To me, it's not meditating on a mountain on your own. To me, it is putting this into practice in your daily life, with others, with your partner, with your business partner, with your family, with your friends, with like-minded people and practice more and notice what works and notice what doesn't work. And if the doesn't work is not working for you, then great, you have the option to make a shift. I'm not sure if that's a satisfactory response. I can't give you another trigger if you want or a helpline. It is being aware of an additional tool and then making a conscious choice to continue applying that tool and practicing it and not being afraid to fail, because you will. I'm failing all the time.
Jonathan Humphries [00:25:10] Haha
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:25:12] I'm serious, I'm serious. I'm not giving up. And then staying committed, we come back to the first one, stay committed to practice new ways of being responsible.
Jonathan Humphries [00:25:23] Yes, yeah. Well, thank you for your compliments, Patrick. I feel that I am very early stage of exploring a new way of thinking and perceiving, which is, put it this way, it feels like and I think it's been like it too many times, it feels like a beginner's mind where I'm really just starting fresh, right? So hence the curiosity.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:25:57] And if I'm interrupting you, isn't there incredible beauty in it?
Jonathan Humphries [00:26:01] Yes absolutely.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:26:01] Because I'm a beginner too. I am not farther ahead than you are. And I think our willingness to put ourselves into a beginner's mind, I think that increases our chances to learn and continue shifting and learning and dealing with our failings versus thinking "I'm an expert". I'm not an expert in what I'm doing here. My learning comes from I have been given these teachings, if you want at some point and I'm becoming more adept at it and the only way of doing it is by practicing it and by failing, and I have the good fortune to be in that domain, to be a transformational leadership trainer so that I'm in constant practice with it. That may be my advantage if you want. But other than that, I'm a complete novice, complete novice.
Jonathan Humphries [00:26:51] I think, with the exception of a few people, I think we're all novices. What I like also and maybe just relate to this is, through this practice, we for sure will recognize where we see improvement. We will also recognize and observe quickly where we're falling, and I use the word falling rather than failing because I like Simon Sinek's recent approach to falling not failing. And he said most of the time, we're falling.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:27:29] Beautiful.
Jonathan Humphries [00:27:29] We fall over, we get back up. He said it's very rare we're actually failing. Failing is something pretty significant. And I like that because, you know, if you think about how we all started very early years of life, we just we fall, we get up, we fall and stumble, you know, and I think if we approach anything that we're doing that is transformational or new or challenging with that mentality of falling and getting up and keep going, it takes a lot of pressure off. For sure there will be times when you could clearly say, OK, maybe that's that's a fail, but I think there needs to be a difference, and I like that.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:28:11] I love his, Simon Sinek, listen, he's a master and I love his perspective and I think in the end, it may be a matter of semantics, I don't know. I always say, you have failings, but you're not a failure. And that maybe speaks into this. But I love the terminology of falling versus failing versus being a failure. Maybe it can even make it more complex. It's beautiful.
Jonathan Humphries [00:28:34] Wonderful. So I think we really explored responsibility. I like this holistic and transformational approach that I am responsible for everything. It is something I am going to practice in terms of my way of thinking and my approach. And we will see where it leads, incubated…
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:28:57] You will have to fall once in a while.
Jonathan Humphries [00:28:58] Absolutely, many many times. But you know what? I think what's intriguing about this is just kind of starting the day with that mindset. I'm curious to even see what's going to happen, right? Because it changes the complete perspective of the day, the very beginning, so.. So we've just been talking about being responsible. We talked about this mindset, soliciting mindset of, kind of statement to oneself, so I am responsible for everything, so that in itself committing to that new way of thinking is a transition from current state to future self. And going back to the author that I mentioned at the beginning William Bridges in Transitions. He talks about three stages. He talks about the need for endings; very important. The transitional phase, which is the neutral chaos phase, learning, discovery, messy phase. And then also the new beginning, where I guess it becomes more apparent that that is something that we've really embarked on and then taken on board. When did you discover the book Transitions? Because when we would, you know, I was asking for a read over the holiday. And you mentioned this one and you said, you know, you don't read many books because you get, and I'm quite similar as well, I don't read the news. And maybe for the audience, that's quite quite shocking. But I get a lot of my information and what's going on through conversation, and that's how I've decided a few years ago to change my learning. And I think you mentioned that you don't read too many books, but this was one of the books that you read and you've kind of, you held there.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:31:03] Let me clarify, I actually consider myself an avid reader, but is probably more, you know, fiction or nonfiction,
Jonathan Humphries [00:31:11] Which is also, to be fair, that's, I mean, I find fiction hugely helpful.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:31:17] I agree with you. Yeah, what what I don't read a lot is what I would label, maybe not with great respect, self-help books.
Jonathan Humphries [00:31:26] Yeah.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:31:26] I have limited beliefs. For me, it's just not how I learn. My learning is practical and experiential based. That's what I'm providing, and that's how I personally invest, that many other people have a different preference for learning and it is through books. And one is not better versus the other. But for me, it's not a preferred way to go about. This book, particularly Transitions by William Bridges that I recommended to you, came across my desk at a very good and opportune time. I left my employer of choice, which was my family for 22 years, and I made a conscious choice to leave in order to pursue what I'm doing now, right? So I founded my own company in the domain of transformational, experiential learning, and I couldn't do that with my previous employer full time. I don't want to do it full time. That was the reason for my departure. So I left my employer of choice after 22 years and it came from a place of conscious choice. I wasn't fired and I thought "I'm ready to go to new beginnings". I wasn't, despite having made a conscious choice. I was grieving for six months. I was grieving the loss of a safe corporate environment, of a family that I felt incredibly connected to, and culturally we shared the same core values and what have you. And despite having made that choice to leave, I was grieving. I was grieving a loss of that safety net, of that corporate employer, of that cultural home. And it hit me hard. And I didn't expect it because I thought I am leading to new beginnings, setting up my own company. And I was obviously dabbling into setting up my new company, but all my energy went to ending. I lost. And then once I was done with that phase as Bridges calls it, I went into the neutral zone and the neutral zone, as you explained, very accurately at the beginning, it's a zone of chaos, meaning there were times I experienced the highest highs. I said, I've got to go baby, I am ready. And I was on a complete high. And the next day, I was at a complete low questioning "was that the right decision that I've made?". Occasionally, really going in a spin, not knowing and just going from these high stilettos, and it was just constant chaos in my head. And they're needed to go through that phase. Once I was done with those two phases, good to go and everything was moving forward, and I was incredibly fortunate to create a company that really worked brilliantly. you know, until we were all confronted by COVID, that was a different transition of sort. And again, confronted by it. But it was, I could move forward. New beginning and all my energy went into this and was incredibly healthy and powerful, and I generated results. As I said, and then COVID hit and a new transition, the world was taken away from me my corporate clients all over the world were taken away from me, my planes were taken away from me, my people that I want to be in the room with were taken away from me. Loss one more time, an ending of sorts. It's a new neutral zone of chaos of some sort. I think I still live there. I still am in there. I don't think I've generated my new way forward because in my mind, it's probably still thinking my new way is back to the old way. And that's just not going to happen. So I still think I'm in some form of chaos, not having clearly formulated how my new beginning will look like because there's this false sense of security that my old ways may be coming back. So I think it's been incredibly powerful. And five six years ago, when I created my company as I was in this ending, I then subsidy going into a neutral zone, and I understood there is a reason behind that. As Bridges' so eloquently describes in his book, it gave me the assurance that I'm not completely insane and that is all made sense and was part of the process in order to get ready for new beginnings. I found it incredibly powerful, and you can apply this to anything. You can apply this to how you react to COVID, to a job, a change in jobs, a change in moves, as we said, even though it's external but people get confronted saying goodbye to an old home that have been living in for 20 years, marriage that falls apart before you can move on with a new partner. It relates to everything, and I just thought there was incredible wisdom in that book and it was very, very, it's one of those self-help book that can call it that way, that really made a dent and an impact and was very, very powerful to me.
Jonathan Humphries [00:36:36] Yes, it is. It is a very powerful book, and I like the tie in with the Greek mythology, the hero's journey and all of that kind of thing by Joseph Campbell. And I guess my question might. This neutral zone, neutral zone sounds very kind of peaceful, right? And having been through this as well, and I wasn't aware of this, right? So I wasn't aware of these three stages of transition. You know, I left the company that I'd worked for, as well, big global company and enjoyed immensely. It was, it was fantastic time, but I also set out to focus more on what I really wanted to focus on, which was this particular niche within the sector. So it was a personal choice and I felt great about it. And to your point, there were these these highs and lows, and you know, there was this period of chaos and then there was a new beginning. And actually, what's interesting is you mentioned about COVID, as well, that also felt like an ending of an era right? And ending of a situation, a way of being, a way of, you know, doing on a global scale. You know, definitely went into a chaos situation, which was, I think, very beneficial. And, you know, there were lots of opportunities that came about, lots of frustration at the same time, lots of challenges both professionally and personally. And I would say that similar to yourself, I wouldn't say that there's a clear new beginning yet. It still feels very much in this phase. But actually, what I, I am comfortable in this phase. So, well, I am a lot more comfortable in this phase than I expected to be. The book was reassuring, and it made it, it made me feel even more comfortable because for some reason I was comfortable with the chaos and all of these different things going on. So that was kind of different, I guess, from maybe a lot of people, and it was because we had, you know, I'd set up the company back in 2015 virtually, right? So a lot of the challenges that people faced, I didn't have to face, it was just then a question of, OK, what are we going to do about it with? A team is already adept, we're already communicating, we already knew how to operate even our clients were already interacting virtually.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:39:33] You had that advantage yeah, so it was created before COVID.
Jonathan Humphries [00:39:35] Yeah, exactly. So it was then about, OK, well, how are we going to respond and react in the right way? And we felt that the only way was through community, right? And as you know, that's why we did so many different kinds of outreach and collaboration initiatives, and we still think that is the way forward. But I wouldn't say there's been a clear new beginning yet. It definitely feels that there have been several new ventures and new opportunities, but can you maybe describe that last time? The first time that you really noticed this neutral and chaos saying what was it like and how did you get to the point where you said, this is now it's ready, this is the new beginning? Because it sounds like it was pretty clear that that period of time kind of stopped. And then there was this real focus, like 100 percent focus on this new beginning.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:40:30] While I think I realize I read the book whilst during the ending, so go back to my leaving my previous employer and I have left and I haven't really established my new company as of yet because I was still kind of linked to my previous employer. So that was what I call what I read the book during that time, and I read "Hold on a second, I'm not in new beginning, I'm in an ending." So it was during that time that I read it that it it just made sense. "Oh, the three phases. Oh, hang on, I'm in ending. Maybe I'm now shifting into neutral zone." And then at some point I realized my highs and my lows; chaos. And I said "I may have finished the ending somewhat, and I've moved on to the next phase." But I also realized it's not clear yet how this will unfold. And then at some point, I didn't have the emotional swings from high to low anymore. It became grounded. And then I think once I was there, I could move on. So, you know, it's not the day, it's not a month, it's not a week. It was a process I had to go through. And as I read the book, as this was happening to me, it was so incredibly helpful noticing "Oh, I might still be grieving." That's why I guess it just explains so many things that I was experiencing emotionally and that was so helpful versus me thinking I have left my employer of choice, and the next day I should be firing on all cylinders, ready to go on a new business. That's what I was intellectual, that's what I thought would happen. I leave, you know, December 31 and January 1 I'm good to go. Well, that didn't work out.
Jonathan Humphries [00:42:20] It's interesting, no? Isn’t it? I mean, think about it from a employers perspective or even a leadership perspective where you basically you transition somebody from one role into another. Yes, you're given a new responsibility or you basically, they finish one company on a Friday and they start another company on a Monday right?
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:42:45] Huge transition and we don't we don't give it enough time
Jonathan Humphries [00:42:48] No. So I mean, it's really it's really fascinating so they're coping with all of those things and the, you know, the pressure to perform as well.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:42:57] So take COVID. People caught it right. The first transition on a global scale. People lose their home or we need to move. Second one, people lose jobs, need to look for a new job. Domestically stuff is going on, you know, lose a partner or what have you lost due to COVID? A lot of people have lost people, a relationship that goes awry. And do you have people who experience the five things at the same time? I mean, talk about ending; you need to go through this and give it time to be with that before you really can move on. That doesn't mean that you don't do anything, of course you get ready, you know, structurally and from an infrastructure point of view, what you need to do. But emotionally, there's stuff that needs to be digested. I mean, in my book you can't rush it. As Bridges says so beautifully in his book, you need to go through it. It's part of the process. You need to go, you know, tomorrow we'll talk about that. We'll talk about authenticity, but there is some form of something needs to be digested before you can break free and break through. And I think that's so beautifully explained in that little book that was written 40-50 years ago and still totally current and relevant?
Jonathan Humphries [00:44:12] Yeah, that definitely not. Definitely not silly. And I think, you know, I'd like to explore this a little bit more. The whole what we mean by transition as well, because he's very much focused on the transitional state of the individual as an opportunity for learning and developing rather than the change itself. The changes just happen to be maybe something that triggers or is a catalyst for the transition and may not even be. And you know, that's why some people are able to, you know, finish the job on a Friday and start a new job on a Monday because they're not going through a period of personal transition as an individual. They're just going through a change. And he makes a distinction. A change; if you're not transitioning as a person that will be relatively, relatively smooth.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:45:08] Yeah.
Jonathan Humphries [00:45:09] But we therefore lose an opportunity to maybe learn about ourselves and discover ourselves and improve ourselves. So that's why the transitional phase is very important.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:45:21] I agree, and I think you gave one example where change and transition may not be aligned, right? Somebody who quits on a Friday and starts on a Monday without experiencing anything on the inside. But I think there are others, there are other situations where change is very much linked to transition or it has the potential for transition.
Jonathan Humphries [00:45:41] Absolutely.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:45:42] Versus maybe protecting yourself in an unhealthy way and not even know what's going on. So I think and then you talk about, you know, the opportunity for personal growth. So I think I actually think transitions are incredibly healthy, not easy at times. Not easy, but incredibly healthy.
Jonathan Humphries [00:46:00] Well, this is why I wanted to link it in because I actually think it's a very strong link to transformational leadership.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:46:06] Yeah, totally.
Jonathan Humphries [00:46:07] And the reason I think it is is because, you know, let's take a relationship is probably an easy example. And I'm sure we've seen situations where certain individual ends a relationship, moves into a new relationship. Similar pattern of behavior, same cycle, relation ends. And you can see the same with leaders. They finish one job, enter a new job, same cycle, few years, that finishes, who's on, same cycle. So they're repeating the same cycles of behavior and performance, and then something ends and then they want, they question, and then they start a new position thinking the new position is going to change the outcome, change the performance of themselves, and it doesn't.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:46:55] Such a great example. I have a coach you, recently, who was confronted with some behaviors that didn't work for him with a certain employer. I was hired to coach him through these behaviors. After three or four weeks, he quit. And I tried very hard to persuade him not to do it, because I'm crystal clear that the same issues that he's dealing with now, if undealt with, will show up with the next employer. It's just a matter of time. And if it's not the next employer, it's the employer after this. It's a matter of time because it's undealt with. And I have other examples; people who stuck it out and go through coaching and take this as an incredible moment of transition and transformation and deal with it as they need to deal with and they are done with it. They move on and they know where it's in a way for them and they make different choices and it serves them beautifully, such great examples I just gave.
Jonathan Humphries [00:48:01] Yeah. So this is why I like it, because it really ties in with transformational leadership, which is why for me the combination of those words is two aspects. One is the the individual focus. So as a leader, how can you you be transformational or how can you lead in a transformational way so that you can transform your teams? But the other way around is how can I transform the leader?
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:48:32] Beautiful. I think there's an absolute link, I didn't think about it more, but there's a link between transition and transformation. I would sign on to that 100 percent.
Jonathan Humphries [00:48:43] Well, Patrick, I think that's a good place to take a little break for today.
Patrick Ghielmetti [00:48:51] Great.
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